Experienced real estate investor Greg Helbeck and Sharad Mehta had an insightful conversation about the fundamental ideas of smart real estate investment in the most recent REsimpli Podcast episode. The episode explores the importance of constant marketing, the perspective required for success, and the need of learning from others as well as from personal experience.

Greg and Sharad demonstrate how much consistent, rigorous marketing plans impact real estate investment. They stress the need of maintaining marketing initiatives even in cases where clear outcomes are not discernible. Greg underlines the long-term significance of marketing as it is quite relevant for novice investors. Sharad emphasizes the need of endurance by noting that even if months without sales are fair, one outstanding purchase may repay marketing costs over a longer length of time.

The problem of developing a strong attitude then becomes the focus in the conversation.  From his view point, every “no” drives investors toward a “yes,” therefore helping them to see rejection as a necessary part of success.  Greg emphasizes the necessity of discipline and hope even under the conditions of rejection. The conversation shows how mental power could change one’s view of real estate, therefore influencing every offer meant for success.

Different markets have refined his ideas and broadened his view on his line of work. Emphasizing the need of learning from others, both presenters stress the wisdom of seasoned investors and the great works like The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. Greg questions his travel from New York to other locations and observes how different events have shaped his perspective on real estate investment.

Greg talks about later on in the interview the difficulties of family life and work. Travel, outdoor activities, and physical exercise appeal to him as they help him to keep interest and energy for his line of work. They also stress the need of knowing about marketing, which may have a big impact on the real estate performance.

The exchanges between Sharad Mehta and Greg Helbeck provide a research of the consistency, attitude, and tactics needed for success in real estate investment. Emphasizing on marketing, learning from mistakes, and maintaining a balanced life—that is, with the appropriate approach—the event shows how one may reach long-term success in real estate.

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Transcript:

Sharad Mehta  0:04  

Record. All right, it is recording Yeah, let me just make sure. Yeah, it’s recording Cool. All right, that’s cool. 123, hey guys. This is Sharad with recently. Sorry, yeah, I do a couple of these different calls, so I have to remember which one it is, yeah, we’ll start it, yeah. Why? Sorry, let me just make sure Yeah. Michael, all right, 123, hey guys. This is Sharad with REsimpli, host after REsimpli podcast, bringing you a super special guest on this podcast. Greg Helbeck, Greg, how you doing? Man, Sharad, always

Greg Helbeck  0:43  

good to talk to you, my friend, it’s been a while since we last spoke.

Sharad Mehta  0:46  

I know. Man, I know it’s always so good to see you. I think it’s been like year, year and a half, since we last connected, or maybe longer. I think last time we spoke, there was covid was still around, yeah,

Greg Helbeck  0:56  

yeah. I think it was we we saw each other in person. I think in 2022 we saw each other. In Tulum. In Tulum, we saw each other, but we talked after that. Yeah, so it’s been, yeah, it’s been over two years since we’ve last seen each other. I gotta, I gotta make a little trip back to California eventually, for sure, eat up with you. Yeah, tell

Sharad Mehta  1:16  

us. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Man, where do you live and what kind of investing do you do? Where do you invest?

Greg Helbeck  1:21  

Sure, so I live in Seattle, Washington. I just moved here, like 90 days ago, and the market that I mainly invest in is actually New York, where I grew up, where I’m born and raised. So our business comprises of fix and flips, wholesales and rentals for the most part, and still, I guess whole tales too, but that’s basically a fix and flip

Sharad Mehta  1:40  

majority in New York a little bit in Seattle area. So, yeah,

Greg Helbeck  1:44  

so the way that I’ve had the business is, like, the New York market has always been, like, our core center right where, like, that’s where we’re really established. You know, we have very good systems there. And then everywhere I lived, I always, like, did deals. So like, when I live in San Diego, I do some deals there. I lived in Reno for six months, and I did some properties there. And now I’m in Seattle, so I’m starting to do deals here now. So I’m not a big fan of, like, go into, like, the nation or whatever. Like, I’d rather be going, like, really deep in like, one to two areas versus going wide. I mean, you can make that work, but that’s a completely different business model.

Sharad Mehta  2:18  

Yeah, I feel like you leave a lot of money on the table if you go broad rather than going deeper in one market, you know, start picking. Yeah,

Greg Helbeck  2:26  

it’s tough because, because when you’re doing that, you’re in, you’re most likely wholesaling, and you said you really don’t understand what you’re buying and selling, like you’re kind of just arbitraging, like the Zillow values and for, like, low hanging fruit buyers, so you can do it. But like I said, I’d rather go deep in a market and have multiple exits versus, you know, just lock up a bunch of stuff and try to assign stuff to random people.

Sharad Mehta  2:51  

I agree. Man. And how long have you been investing for? So

Greg Helbeck  2:55  

started this eight and a half years, almost not nine year based nine years, because that was in 2015 Yeah. What’s

Sharad Mehta  3:01  

your what’s your story? How did you become a real estate investor? You have a very interesting background. So, yeah. So

Greg Helbeck  3:08  

I’m not that. I’m a little bit older now, but I used to be pretty young, and I was in the business. So I was 20 when I started. I was in college. I went to a seminar about they were taught it was like a one of those, like, get rich quick seminars, basically they were like, advertising wholesaling, and they would go all around the country. So I went to the seminar, and they were explaining how to do a double close. And I remember learning about, like wholesaling before that, but I never really connected the dots. And in that first seminar, they like, up sold us into the second seminar, and that was, like, two, I think it was $2,000 to go to the second seminar. Me and my friend split at 5050 because you could, like, take a guess for free. So then we were 220 year old kids in this seminar, and they pretty much told us everything, like, this is how you flip the city wholesale. You got to go out and market. And I was so young and naive at the time. I’m like, You know what? I’m still in college. I don’t really want to have a job. Let me figure this real estate thing out. So it took me nine months after that second seminar to do my first wholesale deal, and it was super hard. And it was like, it I felt like I would never be able to have success, because it just I was trying all this stuff, and it was like not working, and I didn’t know what I was doing, but I got my first check for like, $5,000 because I split a 10k wholesale fee with a mentor. And after that, I started to slowly, like, do more deals, because I understood the process. And then, you know, fast forward to this day. We’ll do like, 55 transactions this year, pretty good margins. And I got three people who work full time with me, including myself. So total of four, but three team members. You know,

Sharad Mehta  4:42  

did you always have interest in real estate? Like, you went to that seminar and you said you had been reading about wholesaling or just, yeah, you were in college. You’re trying couple of different things. I

Greg Helbeck  4:52  

mean, I kind of knew that people in real estate would do did pretty well, like rentals and stuff like, I always knew that. I guess intuitively, i. But I originally wanted to do like stock trading and investing, like in the market, and I would watch like Jim Cramer and, you know, go read whatever those blogs. And I just, it just never really jived with me. And then when I learned about real estate, it just seemed more of like a people business. And, you know, you can kind of control it a little bit more, right? You can control what you pay for a property versus a stock, it’s a little different. So I think real estate just kind of resonated more with my personality, and then once I started to make income in the business. Because the thing that a lot of new people don’t realize is, like, you’re gonna you’re gonna work for free, or you’re gonna, like, pay to work in the beginning, because you’re spending money on marketing. So when you actually start getting paid, when you’re closing deals, you realize that you can actually make this career out of it. So I always tell, like, new investors, like, it’s so important to see your first deal through, get paid, and then decide if, like, do you want to do that again, or is this something maybe you’re not interested, because some people do a deal and they’re like, I don’t really like this, and I want to move on, but you should always see your first deal through, in my opinion. And

Sharad Mehta  6:00  

what time did you realize, I mean, this is something I can make a career out of.

Greg Helbeck  6:05  

Uh, that took even longer, man, because I the first couple years I was, like, sporadically doing deals in New York, and I was like, This is really hard, because New York there’s, like, lawyers and stuff. It’s like, super hard to do business there, especially where, like, where I’m from, it’s like, near the city. So, like, everyone’s got a lawyer, and it’s really expensive. So I was making probably, like, $40,000 of, like, gross income with minimal expenses, and that really wasn’t enough to you know, I guess, live on my own. I was still living with my parents. And the thing that I guess changed the game for me, as I would say is, like, I started to learn that you could virtually wholesale and virtually do deals in other markets. And at the time, that wasn’t very popular. Like, now it’s like, everyone does that. But I was like, I was like, wait a minute, if I can not do this in New York, and then I don’t have to deal with a lawyer, and I don’t have to ever go to the property like that would solve a lot of my problems. So what ended up like, what ended up kind of working out to where I made this thing like a real business, was I was in investor fuel through John Martinez, so he basically got me in there for free. And I met this guy in the mastermind. His name is Jason, and he just seemed like a really cool guy. He was in Dallas, and I told him, I was like, hey, like, I’m starting to, like, do some marketing in Dallas. And I was going after, like, vacant properties, and I can talk about that, you know, at length, if you want. And I said, when I have these opportunities, I need somebody to partner with, because I don’t live here, and I don’t really know, you know, the market that well. So, like, probably a month later, I called him, and I said, Hey, I got this lady who wants to take this offer on this vacant house. Can you go out there and sign the contract if she doesn’t have, like, DocuSign, and we’ll just split it, 5050 and he’s like, Sure. So we wholesale that for $18,000 we split that, you know, 5050 I got a check, or I got a wire for nine grand. And I never went to the property. All I did was, like, get the seller to take the offer. And this was in Dallas. This was in Dallas. Yeah, yeah. And I’ll tell you how it came full circle, because it’s, like, kind of a long story. And then, like, the next week that we had another property where it was a $30,000 assignment, I made 15, so I split that, and I started to understand, like, if I can get really good at finding the sellers and negotiating these things over the phone, I can partner with Jason on a JV basis, and he can take care of all the back end stuff, because I still was pretty new at that point. And we started doing like, two or three of those deals a month in Texas. So I was, you know, not netting the full amount. I was taking half home, but then I was really able to focus on the sales and marketing part of the business. And that’s how I started to, you know, make a good amount of money as a young kid doing it virtually. I eventually moved to California during this whole process, because I no longer needed to be in New York, because there wasn’t really doing deals there. And I started, like, virtually doing deals in Dallas for like, three years straight. And after some time, what ended up happening, and this is how I got back into the New York market is I saved up a good amount of money from all these Texas deals, because we were wholesaling a lot of stuff. And then after like, six months, I had some money saved, and we would buy them in like, these were cheap back in the day, like 30 grand, 40 grand. We’d buy them, we close on them, clean them out, relist them, make more money. And then I would save a lot of that. And then eventually what happened was, like, there was only so many of these, like ultra distress, like tax delinquent, vacant, inherited properties in any given market. And I feel like, at the time, I had most of them in my CRM. I’m, like, all right, I pretty much have all these, like, I’d have to go into a new market, or start to do, like, direct mail in Texas. And I knew that was super saturated, because Dallas is, like, very competitive. So then I had some money, I had a lot of experience, and I said, Well, what if I try to now spend real money on direct mail in New York, which I already knew from, like, starting out there. And this was in, like, at that time, it was probably 2019, and the competition was way less than it was today in New York, at least. Right? So back in the day, I used to spend like two to $3,000 a month on direct mail, I kid you not, and get like one or two deals consistently from everyone. It was like 10 to one. It was crazy. And you know, that’s how I eventually built the business up. And we’ve always evolved since. But started in New York, went to Talis for a while, cut my teeth, and then once I had some savings and experience, I then eventually went back into New York to, like, establish myself, right?

Sharad Mehta  10:24  

So you’re still doing everything, virtually, still doing you’re doing it in the market that you originally started out with, right in that prime that’s, that’s your primary market. And then whatever you’re living you’ll do some deals in the local market.

Greg Helbeck  10:36  

Yeah, exactly nothing crazy, though. It’s not like a real like in San Diego, I lived there for six years. I probably did 12 houses there.

Sharad Mehta  10:46  

Okay. I mean, it’s a super competitive market. Super competitive, yeah, yeah. Crazy. One dealer in San Diego equals like, six to 10 deals in Midwest. I feel like, yeah,

Greg Helbeck  10:56  

yeah. It really does. And the profits, I mean, some of the spreads we made in California where, like, it’s insane, because it’s just so competitive.

Sharad Mehta  11:04  

Yeah, exactly, yeah. So now that you’re in Seattle, you’re going to stick with still the New York market. Like, that’s, that’s a market that you’re never going away from, right? You have systems and processes there, even though I’ve talked to some other investors, like, I don’t know if you know Michael Pinter, he’s in New York oh my god, he, he told me stories. I couldn’t even believe it. Like, how stupid it is in New York to do business. And I’m like, you still do business days, like, yeah. I mean, I found my niche, yeah.

Greg Helbeck  11:32  

Well, I’ll tell you what. I actually listened to that interview with you and Michael. It was awesome. Yeah, it was like, a month ago or something. So, yeah, reason I stick around in New York is there’s, and it’s really doesn’t make logical sense unless you’re like from there, believe it or not, it’s less competitive, but it’s it’s less competitive in general, but it’s still way more competitive than it was back in 2019 because there was, like, no one in 2019 now there’s like, a decent amount of buyers, but It’s nothing like San Diego or, you know, Dallas or Phoenix, like, it’s not, not even close to that. So if I’m competing with somebody, there’s probably, like, one or two people Max. Second thing in New York is that, because it’s so hard to, like, do the contracts and stuff with the lawyers, it’s very hard to get screwed out of a deal after you have something put together, because everyone has more. And then the third thing is the spreads are really high because the purchase price is really high. So like, a $30,000 wholesale fee is normal in New York, because it’s like, your the ARV is 600 grand. So it’s really not that unreasonable to make a 3040, $50,000 assignment fee. And I know everyone there, like I’ve been around, if you look at Velocity house buyers, it’s like, all over the Hudson Valley. So, you know, I got a really good database of insurance people and attorneys, and, you know, my accountants there, and the contractors I have there are great, so it makes sense to stay there. But I will tell you the issue with New York, if you’re doing this, I guess at scale, I’ll put air quotes around that, is that your cash conversion cycle is super long, even on wholesale deals, because, you know, the average assignment you’re probably takes two or three months to close because of the lawyer stuff. So what happens if you have a lot of overhead? Like in our business, we have a decent amount overhead, you know, if we’re not closing deals in other markets, our cash position dries up quick, because we’re looking at these accounts receivable that are coming in in a month or two, but our bills come due every 30 days, right? Especially marketing, right? So these other markets kind of fill the gaps, because we can do properties quicker when there’s no lawyers. So that’s how I can kind of justify being in a few different areas,

Sharad Mehta  13:35  

if you would. If you’re just in New York market, could you have sustained your business the way you know you’re saying, like, it’s almost like you’re using funds from your other markets, Seattle, now, yeah. Like, fund your deals in New York. If you were just in New York, like, how would you go about that? It would

Greg Helbeck  13:51  

be tough, man, I would have to, I would have to rely more on, like, we get a lot of deals from wholesalers and referrals, which cost something, essentially. But it would be tough, because the other operational expenses I have are still 30 day bills, right, payroll, you know, software. So it would be tough, but we could probably make it work, but we’d have to spend less in marketing, because, like, I spent 20,000 a month in marketing, which we could talk about what I’m doing, but I have other deals coming in from other areas to, you know, kind of fill the gaps. From it’s really a cash flow thing. It’s not really, it’s, it’s like, we still have good margins. But from a month on month cash flow New York, the sales cycle takes so long. Yeah, that’s when, like, there’s a lot of guys in my market that are, like, one man shows and they make a half million a year. They have minimal overhead, and it’s never an issue, because they’re not doing that many deals, but their spreads are big. They don’t have a lot of overhead. So all the big players in New York, like even like Michael and these other guys, they usually do business in other markets as well, to offset the BS. That’s in New York.

Sharad Mehta  14:56  

Interesting, yeah, so you have about, yeah. You’re so right. Michael mentioned that he’s doing the youth in Texas now. El Paso, yeah. El Paso, yeah. So you have a 20k monthly marketing budget. How are you spending that money, especially this August 2024 SMS is super regulated. I know you were big on that. Cold calling is getting tougher. What’s working for you right now,

Greg Helbeck  15:21  

direct mail and pay per click, which are the most expensive channels? That’s

Sharad Mehta  15:26  

it is that all you’re doing just nothing else, direct mail, paper, paid marketing. It’s

Greg Helbeck  15:30  

direct mail and pay per click. Is it like half and half? No, it’s 75% mail and then 25% pay per click, 75% Wow. Like, 15,000 15,000 in mailers, yeah, every month. Wow, that channel. Yeah, works so well. People just don’t want to spend the money. But, like, it’s the thing with mail and mail, listen, I’ll tell I’ll be the first one to tell you, mail has gotten a lot harder. Like, yeah, no question about it, expensive.

Sharad Mehta  15:57  

Also, yeah, expensive. But

Greg Helbeck  16:00  

what I’ve seen with mail, and the way that I can justify it, is that I look at mail like you’re gonna send, you know, let’s say I don’t know, 25,000 mailers a month, or whatever, whatever your numbers make the number up. Yeah, you’re guaranteed, assuming you didn’t screw the list up to get a certain amount of calls. Like, almost guaranteed, the response rates are low, but you’re going to get calls out of those calls. You’re going to get leads out of those leads, you’re going to make offers, and out of those offers, you’re going to, you know, get business over time. So the thing about like, about mail, is that the money you’re spending like, in month one usually doesn’t pan out to like month four, five or six, especially in New York, but then month two’s spend produces like this retroactive revenue, right? Because, like, a lot of our deals we get from mail are on the follow up, but then we’ll have one come in, like right off the bat, and we’ll make 30 on it. But then that same campaign that we spent the, you know, what’s called the 15 grand on, will produce another deal that will make 20 on and then they it starts to compound, and it’s very predictable, like, I know when we send out the mail, the phones are going to ring, we’re going to get leads, we’re going to make offers, we’re going to have business, right? The thing about texting, and I used to love texting, before it got really regulated, was you could market to the same audience of people at a way cheaper cost per unit, right? Like a text message cost pennies compared to direct mail, is like 50 cents. And you know, it was like, Okay, this is great, but I knew over time that was gonna keep getting worse. Pay Per Click, on the other hand, is very tricky, and I’m still gun shy with it. I don’t spend a lot of money on it because are you doing

Sharad Mehta  17:40  

it? Are you doing it in house, or you have an agent, agency,

Greg Helbeck  17:43  

yeah, agency doing it. So that channel is like a roller coaster, like one month you might get great results, but then the next month, you’re going to spend the same amount of money, and you might get zero results, and then the month after that, you might get zero results, but then the month after that you might get two deals. So it’s very like unpredictable, but if you look at the return on ad spend over like a 12 month period, it’s usually like, I think in like, I don’t have the 2024 data, but in 2023 like, year to date, we had four to one on direct on on Pay Per Click, PPC, because it was a roller coaster. Yeah, it was a roller coaster. In fine with,

Sharad Mehta  18:17  

yeah, what you would expect with PPC, like, three and a half to, like, four, 5x is what you would expect.

Greg Helbeck  18:24  

I mean, depending, yeah, okay, that’s normal. I think the guys who say they’re getting 10 to one, I mean, that’s,

Sharad Mehta  18:29  

that’s exceptional. Those are, those are edge cases. But I would say, like, I mean, what we notice anything below 3x and correct me if I’m wrong. You should get away from their marketing channel. Look at, you know, like, what the holes are in that market. Three to 5x is good. Anything above five you should, like, just keep doubling down on that marketing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

Greg Helbeck  18:49  

would say, I mean, pay per click, like I said, I’m, like, considering stopping it because it’s so expensive and right, cash flow is a real issue. But the thing with pay per click that, like, I’ll give you an example. This was because I remember last year, I have the full data set from 2023 we had like crappy results in like the middle of the year, like, we did one great deal right off the bat, that was a home run. And then we had like crappy results. And this, I remember last year, I was like, I think I’m going to cut this. And literally, in one week, we had two deals come in back to back, like, on like, a Tuesday, and then on a Wednesday, we made like, $60,000 and now I’m like, okay, that works. Like, we gotta keep this. But the thing with pay per click that I don’t like is that not only is it really expensive, and you know, you’re they’re probably calling four to five different companies, because that’s the nature of the the seller profile, they’re in like, research mode. But if you don’t answer that phone within like, two minutes, you’re you’re toast, like, you forget, because the competitor’s going to answer it, and then you’re at a huge disadvantage. So, like, I don’t like running campaigns on weekends, because my team doesn’t work on the weekends. And. You know, I might not be available to backfill. So I just don’t like how you always have to be, like, near your phone. Like, if I had no team, like, I’d have to, like, have my phone next to me answering PPC calls all day. I just don’t like kind of being in that mode, yeah, um, but pretty right,

Sharad Mehta  20:14  

for PPC, you need to do that. It’s like, speed to lead, yeah, it’s all it is,

Greg Helbeck  20:18  

even pay per lead. We did, actually, we cut it out this year, but last year we were doing pay per lead as well, and that was pretty good for a while, but then I noticed that dropped off. Oh yeah,

Sharad Mehta  20:27  

that’s one marketing channel. You hear so many mixed things. People that love it, absolutely love it, people that hate it, like, Man, I can’t believe. How can people make money with this?

Greg Helbeck  20:37  

Well, I’ll tell you about that. I I’ve there’s a company called PRI now, there’s a company I mentioned, I have no affiliation with them. They’re called property leads. They’re the in my opinion, they have the best quality paper lead leads like I think their quality is the best from what I’ve seen, because I’ve used them a lot when they first came out. This was 2022 I think at the end of the 2022 I was still living in San Diego. I was getting one out of five. Like, one out of five leads was a deal. And are, like, one out of five, wow, one out of five because nobody was using them. It was a brand new company. All of their leads were pretty cheap because there was not a lot of customers. So the demand wasn’t there, and they didn’t have, like, you know, because now they’re doing other things as well. It was all organic SEO Leads, right? And they were selling them off for two or 300 bucks a pop. And we were like cleaning up with them. But then what happened was that they got more popular, right? And that’s, you know, supply and demand. And then the demand increased. Their prices went up, and then they had to start using other ways to get leads, because you can’t depend on the SEO. So what happens is, like, some new paper lead comes out, they’re really good, but then all of a sudden you’ll see the price go up, and then the quality gets a little hit or miss, and then it’s like you can’t rely on it, right? Because you’re not in control your success there, because it’s not, not your asset, right?

Sharad Mehta  21:59  

Yeah. And I’ve heard with some paper lead providers, not property leads, but just, I’ve heard from about some other paper lead provided, they start providing Facebook leads, which are totally crappy compared to your PPC lead, but then you’re paying the same price for them as compared to your pay per lead and your PPC lead. So that’s where your ROI definitely goes out the door. Now, I mean, what we’re noticing the investors that are successful like, I mean, ultra successful doing 2030, deals a month, is they’re using, definitely relying on inbound marketing, PPC, SEO, direct mail, TV, radio. You know, I think with all the regulations that we have with SMS and core. It’s good in a way, for experienced investors, because it’s there’s a lot less competition from newbie investor. It’s not, it’s not 2023 where you could just buy a list from propstream, skip trace, start texting, all within an hour. You can’t do that anymore. And you know, even if it takes you a month to be up and running with it, and if you’re sending spam, you get shut down pretty quick now, so, which is a really good thing, but I want to go back to the point, you know, it’s like the way I look at investing, wholesaling business. It’s a marketing business above anything else. How do you get the courage to spend money on marketing? And it’s not like, you know, you put 5000 in, you get 20,000 back. It doesn’t work like that. Some months, you’ll spend money and nothing comes back. You still have payroll. You still have your other operating expenses that you have to pay for. How do you keep going, right? I mean, that’s the toughest part. I mean, then you start questioning the marketing channel, and, you know, the secret isn’t consistently, you know, doing the marketing. But how do you stick with it? Like, I’m sure you have your doubts, you know, some months where you don’t get how do you how do you work with that mindset?

Greg Helbeck  23:51  

So here’s how what I tell you, and if you’re brand new, it’s hard to believe this, because you haven’t done it, but when you have the experience knowing that, let’s say, direct mail, works in the past. And you know, because you track your stuff, that’s the key, is tracking your data, that when you spend x amount of dollars on marketing over time, you’re going to get a return of y, hopefully three to one, if not higher. You know, historically, when you do that, and you how, I have all your, you know, old data, you’re like, Okay, well, if I spend the 10 grand a month, which is scary, historically, I’m making 30 to 40 back, the logic has to kick in, in your head and be like, Okay, well, if I want to continue to have this success, because I’m transacting real estate, I’m not keeping rentals, I need to spend this money, or else I’m not going to have the results. Because the thing with mail and any of these inbound channels is like, you’re gonna spend, like, the effort and money you spend month one, you don’t see through until MONTH 3456, right? So you gotta know, like, if you want to have a successful future, right? You have to plant those seeds today. And you gotta understand, too, if you track your numbers and you understand your KPIs, which I can tell you what I track. Uh, like, it’s, it’s just math. At the end of the day, it’s not really, like, it’s like, a gamble. Like, okay, I’m gonna get worst case, 30 phone calls. Worst case, out of those 30 phone calls, worst case, I’m gonna get like, 10 leads, or 15 leads. If I do three mailings, I’ll have, you know, 3040, leads, worst case. And there’s a guarantee we’re gonna get a deal out of that. Like, it would be almost impossible. Like, if you get 40 direct mail leads that are not take me off your list. Like, actually, hey, I want to sell my house. Yeah, even in, like, a San Diego, because I used to mail in San Diego, you’re going to get a deal. It’s just that deal might come from follow up, but if you track the revenue that you close back to the spend, it’s like it always works, and that’s why these mail houses are huge, right? Because they have customers, and people know that it works, because if it didn’t work, they wouldn’t be in business, right? So you have to track the numbers and then just know that over time it will work. And that’s why new people, like you said, like, yeah, you could just go download a list on Prop stream that everyone downloads, hit them with a text and like, you know, it’s like low hanging fruit, but now that’s gone away. So you have to find a way to be more, you know, courageous and spend that money. Because if you’re new, you can still get in the door. You can drive for dollars. You can, you know, find, like, the really distressed lists and like flag the vacants. You can do that. I’m sure on a REsimpli You could have a list stacker. You can still get in the door, but it’s just you have to put a little more legwork in nowadays.

Sharad Mehta  26:22  

Yeah, or, you know, I mean, I always tell newbie investors the best way to get started is partner up with an experienced person, learn from them. And there’s no better way to learn than to work with an experienced investor. And you spoke about tracking numbers, which were a reasonably huge, huge believers. So what? What do you track in your business? Like, what? What are some of the numbers that you look at on a weekly or monthly basis, and you make decisions based on that, yep.

Greg Helbeck  26:45  

So I look at close revenue, right, straight revenue. I look at the amount of contracts that got signed. So I’m sorry I close revenue, close deals, right, contracts, signed offers, made leads, generated marketing dollars spent right? Because that’s one funnel, and this is excluding referrals, because that’s free. So if I spend excellent marketing, I’m going to get a certain amount of calls, like primarily through direct mail, out of those calls. We’re going to get a certain amount of offers out out of those offers. We’re going to get a certain amount of contracts signed, out of those contracts signed, we’re going to get a percentage of deals closed out of those deals closed. We’re going to have a revenue number. So what you want to look for when you break those down from a high level, is like, let’s say you get 10 contracts signed, but you only close on three deals. Well, there’s a problem there. You’re either locking bad deals up, which is a false vanity metric, or your deals have, like, title issues or something, or, you know, whatever, maybe there’s like, a delay in closing. So you have to, like, look at one number and then look at the metric above it and see if it’s in line. Like, let’s say you spend 30 grand in marketing and you get, I don’t know, 300 calls. And out of those 300 calls, you only have like, 50 leads. Well, now you probably mail the bad list, or some you did something wrong, because normally that wouldn’t add up. Like, usually, from what I’ve seen, about half of the calls that come in from a mailing campaign are leads, and then the other half are taking off your list tire kickers. So you gotta start with like, the thing you have control over, which is the money, right, or the effort, if you’re new, and then use that as the baseline to then go down to calls, and then leads and then offers. Because, like, if we’re like, here’s another example. Let’s say you get 50 leads, but then you only make 10 offers. Like you’re you’re not making if someone came to me, yeah, I’d be like, Well, you’re not making enough offers. You had 50 opportunities to make an offer, and you only took advantage of, you know, 20% of those. So you need to make more offers. And then come back to me, and I could see, like, maybe your conversions bad or something, but exactly, but, but if you have those tracked, you at least can know where the where the issues lie, right? But a lot of people don’t track their numbers, and then they are emotional and they’re upset, and they’re like, oh, this doesn’t work. And then I’m like, Well, usually I say, Okay, you’re saying you haven’t gotten a deal in five months. How many offers have you made in the last five months? And you know what they say? Sharad, I don’t know. Oh, there we go. You don’t even know what you’re doing. You’re not even trying, but

Sharad Mehta  29:09  

you’re so right. Greg, I want to go back like if you got 50 leads people that said, hey, I’m interested in selling my property. There’s no reason why you should not be making an offer. It doesn’t matter if they’re asking 200,000 but you want to offer 100 still make an offer of 100. Dude, this crazy things, you and I both know they’re crazy things that happen. We just locked up a deal. I mean, we’re actually selling it this week or next week. We’re going to make 85 to 90,000 we bought it for 90, put like 510 into it. This was on a one year follow up sequence, right? And we’re going to make about 8590 on that deal. So that deal. Originally, we were willing to pay 110 we ended up buying for 90, because the seller situation changed, you know, but we had all the notes the seller didn’t remember we were offering 110 they probably had bunch of other offers. But it’s crazy that if you do not make an offer, it’s like you don’t. Have a chance of scoring unless you take a shot. It’s just as simple as that. And there’s so many people that just get discouraged based on what the seller is asking, what seller is asking, that’s their opinion of the value. You still have to make an offer on their property. That’s the only way to see if the seller would accept it or not. And it’s yeah, you’re so right to get 50

Greg Helbeck  30:19  

example on that trod, that was a great so you said you that was a one year follow up, one 400 days, 400 days, 400 day follow up, because I’m sure, yeah, you’re going to make 90 grand because from direct mail, yeah, this

Sharad Mehta  30:32  

was from direct mail campaign, and this was from direct this was from a direct mail campaign we had stopped mailing to, because we have different tracking. This was a from a direct mail campaign that we had stopped mailing to about couple of years ago, the person held on to our postcard. Yeah, those are

Greg Helbeck  30:46  

the best leads, by the way, those 100% those Yeah, call you two years later, yeah, ready to go, yeah, yeah. And

Sharad Mehta  30:52  

we’re like, oh, wow, we haven’t even made the list in two, three years, and they call back. Those definitely are the best deals where people call you back after a year of follow up or so.

Greg Helbeck  31:01  

That’s why I like mail, because, yeah, get these retroactive, like, it’s like an aged it’s like an aged lead where they’ve had that postcard. And I’ll give you an example on that, because it takes the two points you just made. This lady called us about a month and a half ago from an old mailing, like, from a year ago. I think, I think it was, it was at least a year ago, because we cut the campaign, and then she had her house, trud listed on the market for 389 listed with a real estate agent. Okay, you guys be thinking this person would never take a discount. We figured out that she was motivated for whatever reason, she ended up selling us the house for $260,000

Sharad Mehta  31:41  

Wow. From 389 to 260 Yep,

Greg Helbeck  31:44  

it was originally 250 but I gave her 10 grand more because I didn’t want to rent it back to her, because she was out of her mind. So I said, I’ll give you 10 extra 1000 if you just get out in a week. And she’s like, okay, cool, I’ll do that. So

Sharad Mehta  31:56  

that is crazy. What’s you know? What you know? What I love about direct mail? It’s people don’t get it. It’s like something tangible that people get. It’s it’s the only piece of market that’s something. There’s something about that. There’s something about people receiving something in mail. And you know what’s the crazy thing? I tell people all the time, and I don’t know why people don’t do this, they’ll send out direct mail to their list, right? And then you get so many calls from direct mail people say, hey, I’m interested. Then you cannot get hold of them. I tell them. How did you initially get the lead? Direct Mail. Send them another postcard as part of a follow up. You know, it’ll reach to them. If something, it’s something in front of them, physically and they it might trigger them to get a call. It’s such a simple thing. I mean, yeah, direct mail for me, I feel like it’s the best long term marketing channel. Like one thing we notice across all investors that are doing consistently deals, consistently doing deals, they have direct mail as some part of their marketing, whether it be their primary or small part of it, but that’s one marketing channel that we consistently notice every successful investor is using. Not everyone is using PPC, not everyone is using TV, not everyone is using direct but everyone is using direct mail, whether they’re using it as a primary marketing channel, but they’re using it as a small niche list. We have a guy from Texas. They do about 3035, deals a month, and they get 85% of their 8075, or 80% of their deals from direct mail. Simple, but they’re super consistent. Yeah, very consistent. That’s, that’s what it’s all about. Consistent, consistent, consistent. Wow,

Unknown Speaker  33:24  

yeah,

Sharad Mehta  33:25  

yeah. Speaking, speaking of marketing, how long would you stick with the marketing channel before you kind of make a decision? All right, it’s not working. Is it based on dollars? Is it based on time?

Greg Helbeck  33:36  

That is a great question. I would say it’s a little bit of both. So the number one thing I see is that people will do direct mail for a month, and then it won’t work. And I’m like, Okay, you

Sharad Mehta  33:46  

might definitely not do it. Yeah, not even do.

Greg Helbeck  33:48  

I tell people six months if you don’t have, like, elite New York is different because it’s such a long lag time. If you don’t have, like, quality leads and contracts pending, like offers accepted or whatever, or in another state, contract signed in six months, and you mailed that channel, or what did that list for six months straight? And it was more than 1000 people. It was like, 2345, plus 1000 at that point, I would not necessarily stop doing direct mail. I would pause the campaign, and I would break under the hood and see, like, okay, like, was the list screwed up was the marketing message, not there, were you not answering the phone? Right? Some people, just like, they won’t answer the phone, they won’t call people back, so, like, they’re getting these calls, but then they’re not returning the calls, and then they never get, like, a quote, unquote lead. So I would say six months would be the time horizon for any channel, because you can get, I mean, most markets, you can get a return in six months. In New York, you could get pretty good feedback, if not a return in six months. And then, you know, at that point I would evaluate it, but in terms of dollars spent direct mail, oh boy, I would say 25 30,000 if you spend 25 or $30,000 and don’t get. A deal. Even if you’re like the bay area or Seattle, you’re something’s wrong, yeah, it’s

Sharad Mehta  35:04  

about like 15 to 200 1500 to 2000 a month over six months period, right? 1500 2015 102,000, every month for six months. Yeah, you should definitely get a deal out of it.

Greg Helbeck  35:19  

That’s $2,000 yeah, you even in the high end market, like a New Yorker Seattle should get something like that. Because, yeah, because the thing with the mail is, like, it really comes down to timing, right? It’s when that person gets the postcard. Like, like, a good example, I’ve been mailing people forever on the same list, and we get all these leads. I’ve gotten your postcard for two years. My tenant stopped paying rent. Let’s do the job. They’ve known about me for, you know, that long, and they’re calling me now, and it’s like, okay, well, if I just sent them the mail this month, would they have called me? Or is it that two year effort? They see velocity everywhere when they attendance, stops paying rent, they know who to call. So it’s just timing. You can’t control the timing, but you can control the more units you have out in the mail, the higher the chances of someone who has a problem to call you right because you said direct mail’s tangible. They can see it, they can feel it, they can save it. Unlike, you know, an online digital ad,

Sharad Mehta  36:18  

and then is there any special list that you mailed to, or you have a pretty like, absentee, you know, owner vacant properties, and you stack your list, nothing crazy. So

Greg Helbeck  36:30  

I got a lot to say about this stuff. I love this. I can talk about this for hours. So I’ve mailed the typical absentee owner, like unknown equity list very successfully. That works. You got to pull that list the right way. You got to make sure the last sale date was a long time ago, because that you got to have an age property with like distress. Usually they’re either beater rentals or they’re vacant, from what I found, if it’s like only for 20 years. The other list that I like is, like the niche stuff, like probate, pre probate, tax delinquent. Those always work right. Inherited property. Like, we just got a great lead yesterday. Inherited property, you know, they want to sell it as is, blah, blah, blah. The other list that people talk about, and I’m starting to spend more money on it now, is, like this predictive list. Like, there’s companies out there that have, like, some sort of model. It’s like, basically a giant look alike audience base, from what I found. And it’s like the data flick, organic, 8020, or whatever they have. Like, these look alike audiences. So like, they’ll take all the sales that were to investors at discounts, and then they’ll, like, build a model around, right the people who would do that, and then they like, I don’t know, some sort of fancy thing. We’re mailing it. It’s working. It’s getting us deals. I don’t know what the heck like, it comprises of, but it was expensive. We’re seeing, we’re seeing the quality of the lead is much higher with that list. Like, there everyone who’s calling us is in distress, which is, that’s interesting.

Sharad Mehta  37:49  

Interesting? Yeah, yeah. No, I think it’s about starting with the quality of the list, and then once you have a good quality list, then it’s all about being consistent. Like, when people come and ask us, hey, what marketing channel should I start with our answer? Also the one that you can stick with the longest at the end of the day, every marketing channel works, but can you stick with it long enough? I think that’s the key. People will do direct mail. One when they’re like, oh, direct mail doesn’t work and they’re getting lead, then they’ll jump to cold calling, then they’ll jump to like, a little bit of paper lead, and they’re like, Oh, I’m gonna do texting. They’re just all over the place, and they’re not getting any any leads out of it. Yeah.

Greg Helbeck  38:23  

Sharad, what have you seen with your people, with, like, the TV, the one media I’ve never done is TV and radio, everything else I’ve done, have you seen that be a pretty because you have all that data, right? Is that, yeah, I

Sharad Mehta  38:34  

think people, or is it kind of it, definitely, it, definitely, it’s expensive. But the thing with TV, it’s like, sometimes it’s hard to, yes, I mean, of course you can attribute a marketing lead to that channel, but sometimes what happens, a lot of times, is you’ll notice that you’re doing TV and radio ads, and then, of course, you’ll use different tracking numbers to, you know, track the calls and stuff. But a lot of time, people will actually go to your website, and you’ll see a spike in your website traffic. So it’s hard to attribute that lead to TV and radio, but you clearly notice a spike on your web traffic, you know, and then you’ll often start seeing more leads from PTC, you know, if you’re doing PPC or SEO Leads, because people are finding you, but then they would have never found you if you were not doing TV and radio ads. So that’s, that’s one thing that’s very interesting is it’s, it’s kind of hard to, you know, when you get a lead and then you say, Hey, how did you hear about us? Yes, you can go based on what they say. But so many people have no idea. They get so many, you know, ads from different companies. And they may say, Oh, I saw your Facebook and you’re like, Oh, we’re not even doing Facebook ads. You know, how do you see that? So, but that’s one thing we notice, is people doing TV and radio, they will see a spike in their website traffic, because now people are finding them, so that’s what. So they start getting more leads from that. Yeah, but, but definitely the market is shifting towards inbound marketing. Right? Your P. The paper, lead, SEO, TV, radio, direct mail, like SMS, is almost pretty much at the end of its life. Cold calling is definitely getting tougher. So it’s people that are investing in long term marketing channels are the ones that are definitely going to come out ahead, building a brand, building a brand, exactly, and then being consistent with their marketing, right? It’s like, you know, I always give an example of, let’s say, if you know, I have a Toyota dealership that mails me a postcard every quarter, once a quarter, about some special going on. I’m not in the market to buy a car, but they keep doing that. You know, it’s like, 50 cents, 60 cents to them. They’re like, you know, mail them. Mail me a postcard. Let’s say, a year, year and a half later, my car breaks down just because they’ve been consistently mailing me a postcard. My first thought, hey, let me call that your daddy. If I’m in the market for, you know, that kind of a car, I’ll just call it’s the same thing with the marketing that we are doing when you send our postcard or letter. I It’s not that, you know, the seller is waiting. Oh, I want to sell my house. You know, I wish someone would send me a postcard, but if you consistently send them, especially in our market, like, you know, New York is a little bit colder state also, but we invest in Indiana, like people in the summertime, they’re enjoying the weather outside in the winter, you know, especially the older folks are like, oh, I want to get out of here. I want to move down south. And all of a sudden, you know, like, Oh, you’ve been mailing us every month, you know, are you still looking to buy? And then you just keep following up with them. You have to be in touch with them at the right time when their situation changes. Not everyone that you’re mailing will have a situation even if you mail someone who’s going through a bankruptcy or divorce, you know, not everyone has the same pain going through bankruptcy or divorce, but if you mail them long enough, then you know, am I just something might trigger? And they’re like, Okay, I’m ready to sell. I just want to get out of that situation. You

Greg Helbeck  41:51  

hit it on the head. It’s so true. That’s what people don’t realize. It’s the consistent like, the Toyota is a great example, because, like, Yeah, I mean, half the stuff that I get in my mailbox, I’m like, Yeah, whatever. But I get emails all the time, which is, like, a similar, like, hey, this offer for this software or whatever, dude. Oh, let me try that. Exactly,

Sharad Mehta  42:08  

exactly, exactly. Like, imagine how many, like, think of how many times you do that, like, you get an email marketing with something you’re not in the market. But then when you are loosely in that market about that, then you will, just, by default, subconsciously, will go to that brand because you’ve been seeing that. It’s the same thing with your marketing, like just, they just keep seeing your postcard, your brand, your whatnot, TV ads, radio ads, or whatnot, and it just all, you know, it’s a holistic approach towards your marketing, building your brand. Yeah, that’s, that’s what we see work consistently.

Greg Helbeck  42:40  

I bought this hat off of an ad, like, a month ago. I saw this cool hat. It’s got the America on it, yeah. And I was on Instagram and I saw this hat, and I’m like, that is, and I’ve seen it before, but then I was in the market to buy a $20 hat, yeah. And I bought it on the spot. So their KPIs are even better? Yes, exactly.

Sharad Mehta  43:01  

It. Just, it works the same way for someone who’s selling their house. It’s a bigger decision, of course, you know, there will be, it’ll take a little bit longer, versus, like, buying something off, you know, Amazon or whatever, for 2030 bucks. But it’s the same mindset, the same principles that we have. Just it’s consistency, like you do in, day in, day out. You stay in front of them, and then when their situation changes, when they are like, the way I think of marketing is, and follow this, you just have to be in front of the seller and wait for them when they’re ready to sell. You cannot force someone to sell, you know. Yes, you can use some marketing jargon and whatnot language, you know. But all the marketing does it, it just, you hope you get a fair chance of making an offer on the property when they ready to sell. That’s all that’s that’s all we hope for. And we just say, there are multiple offers. We just, Hey, do you please give us a fair chance of, you know, making sure our offer is competitive. And then we’re doing a follow up. It’s just about, hey, whenever your situation changes, just let us know. People get so hung up about, oh, I want to use this color postcard, that color postcard, you know, I want to say this word it. Yes, you can. It doesn’t matter. But at the end of the day, it’s just about letting the seller know, hey, we’re looking to buy a house. Whenever you’re ready to sell, we’re ready to buy. That’s what it’s all about at the end of the day. And then that’s what we noticed work for us. That’s what we noticed consistently works for so for a bigger investor, just being consistent, like, they’re very, very diligent about consistently marketing. Because it is a marketing business. At the end of the day, you stop marketing, stop getting leads, you stop making offers, stop getting deals. That’s that 100% even if you’re doing rentals, like, I

Greg Helbeck  44:37  

got rentals, you got rentals. It’s like, you know, you want to buy these good rentals at discounts and refi on them in cash, like you got to market for those, it’s the same thing. It’s the same exact thing. So 100% man, yeah, no, it’s uh, people, if they really studied marketing and got good at that, I mean, the real estate would take care of itself. Oh, dude,

Sharad Mehta  44:56  

seriously, yeah, the selling someone is. The easier part, I think it’s just the marketing, knowing that you have to be just having the discipline of being consistent, even for 234, months if you do not get any deal out of your marketing, just knowing, trusting that it’s going to work out in the long term. You know, you might be going through a cycle where you’re not getting any leads. It could be seasonal, it could be whatever reason, but in the end, it’s going to work out. And you get one deal, like, we’ve been making 85 it pays for, like, next two, three years of marketing for us, exactly. And you know that, like, oh, you know, there you go. It just covers. And then you just have to wait for those sort of deals. Like, put it

Greg Helbeck  45:33  

this way, let’s say you’re a wholesaler, and you’re new, and you don’t, like, really know what you’re doing yet. And let’s say you need 10 offers to make one deal. You get paid $1,000 for every time you make an offer. If your assignment, yeah, think about it. If it’s 20, it’s 2000 right? So think about it that way, yeah.

Sharad Mehta  45:47  

You know, I forgot who it was. I was talking to someone on a podcast, and he put it in such a good way. He said, you know, his giving son number, I forgot what the exact number. He said, We have to make 25 offers to get a deal. It was something every time, every time, every time we get a no, he’s like, I get excited. I’m like, why? It’s like, okay, then now I he’s like, I know I’m closer to my deal now because I already have, like, one, you know, rejection out of the way. Like, that’s such a cool way to look at it. It just, it’s a numbers game. You’re gonna get like, 24 people pissed off, but one people accept your offer. So every time you get someone to say no, like, oh yes, you know, I only have 23 rejections to go, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. And then you you put it like, similar. Just think about every offer that you’re making, it’s making you $10,000 basically, you know, just if you think of it and like, they’re like, yeah, that kind of makes sense. You know, if I make 10 offers, you get a deal. All right, every offer $1,000 $1,000 Closer, closer to my deal. Now I love that. I love that exactly. I

Greg Helbeck  46:47  

heard that a long time ago. I never

Sharad Mehta  46:50  

Greg, this has been incredible, man. Thank you for your time. Couple last questions for you. You moved from New York, San Diego, Reno, Seattle. So what do you do for fun?

Greg Helbeck  47:01  

I go for hikes. I go for walks. I go swimming in the lake. Travel quite a bit. You know, we’re going to New Jersey tomorrow, and we’re going to actually Japan in October. Cool. Yeah. So we travel a lot, where, you know, enough kids. We’re pretty young still. I mean, not that young, I guess. But you know, we don’t do

Sharad Mehta  47:21  

28 929. Do Dude, come on.

Greg Helbeck  47:23  

I mean, it’s not, there’s a baby. There’s kids in this business now that are like 21 and that that’s

Sharad Mehta  47:28  

like 21 Yeah, I’ve seen, like, hopefully, like, 1718, yeah, it’s

Greg Helbeck  47:32  

crazy. I got a beard now, you know different? No, I do a lot of outdoor stuff. I work out I’m training for a marathon. Oh, you aren’t nice, yeah. So I’ve been running

Sharad Mehta  47:41  

like a maniac. Yeah. When are you? When are you doing the marathon? New York

Greg Helbeck  47:46  

City Marathon is shoot the first Sunday in November. The New York City

Sharad Mehta  47:50  

November. Nice, nice. Been running a

Greg Helbeck  47:53  

lot. Thanks, man. So I’ve been doing that. I stay active, you know, nothing crazy. I mean, I think I got all my partying days out of the way, when I was like, you know, 18 so I don’t really do anything exciting nowadays,

Sharad Mehta  48:05  

you’re talking like you’re driving a minivan. You have two kids. You’re 2829 man, enjoy. Yeah, hey, yeah. I mean, I have a minivan. I love driving them. You got a minivan? Yeah? I do. Yeah. All right, I know you love reading. What’s the one book that’s how the most influence on your life, business book, personal book, or one of each, the

Greg Helbeck  48:30  

compound effect? By Darren Hardy, oh yeah, dude, that’s the easiest book to read. And it’s just, like, if you just literally read that book and, like, sort of implement it like you, yeah, it’s so it’s such a good book.

Sharad Mehta  48:40  

It’s like 100 it’s like 100 it’s basically what we talked about, just like, literally what we thought, just being consistent with what you’re doing anything in life, like losing weight, you know, making more money. It just comes down to being consistent. Yeah, I

Greg Helbeck  48:53  

listen to it once a year, just to remind myself, basically, Oh, yeah. The audio. Such a great book. Yeah. Love that book. Yeah. Great

Sharad Mehta  48:59  

book. All right. Final question, if you could spend a day with anyone, dead or alive, who would you want to spend the day with and why

Greg Helbeck  49:08  

that’s a good question, I would say, Huh, probably, probably like, maybe like Ray Dalio, or someone, just someone, not, not because he’s like a multi billionaire, but just to, like, hear his opinion on everything, like in a one to one setting about business life, because he seems to have a lot of his stuff together, besides the money thing, I would say, like a Ray Dalio, yeah, someone like that, yeah, I look up to, or maybe like Adam Sandler or something like that, like, Oh

Unknown Speaker  49:42  

yeah, yeah.

Greg Helbeck  49:44  

He’s a good guy too. Like, he’s not just like a funny actor, like I’ve heard, is he? He’s

Sharad Mehta  49:47  

from New York, right? Yeah? Is he, yeah, yeah, Brooklyn, I think, yeah. All right. Greg, someone listening to this wants to connect with you, learn more about you, so you what’s the best way for them to do that? They can go to YouTube

Greg Helbeck  49:59  

to. Greg Helbeck, r, e, i or i think Greg Helbeck, real estate investors, just type my name in Greg Helbeck on YouTube and you know, they could check out my channel. I put out two shows a week. You know, we were always putting out information, helping people, so that’s the best way to connect with me. Yeah, we’ll

Sharad Mehta  50:13  

put a link to that in the show notes. Great. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Man, this was absolutely incredible. You’re welcome. Thank you. Thanks.

Greg Helbeck  50:22  

That was a good show, man.